Scorpion HK 4225 6+7x1.32 YY and YGE 120A HV HELP!!!

gmauro

User
HI, I ask your help for my problem.... I fly this combination of motor and ESC on my TDR, but the motor don't run smoothly, run whit high rougness and no constant and regular rotation.
On the YGE 120 I have tested and changed all the possible setting of timing, PWM and governor, but whitout solutions.
Anyone fly this combination or have an help to give to me? what is your setting? YY winding work correctly whit YGE esc?

Thanks for help and regards
Mauro
 
Hi,

I used the same motor with a YGE 160HV, so I guess settings should be identical.

P gain on the second lowest setting
I gain on the middle setting or even higher

- this gets you "smoother" rpm for normal flight/speeding, but is still not quite ideal IMO - not like a Kontronik Jive, for example. For 3D or other high load scenarios, you should not use throttle values under 80% as the ESC gets too hot otherwise and governor performance suffers.

Timing for your motor should be at 18 or 24 degrees, both work.

Regards,
Simon.
 

torro

User
i have no problems with YY winding and YGE.

HK3026 5+5YY @ YGE80

P and I standard, PWM 8khz, timing 24°, gov.stor with fast.gov
 
Hi torro,

from what I have read, the HV series is a little different than the LV series, governor-wise.

I know for sure my buddy's T-Rex 500 flies with a YGE ESC and governor and does not exhibit the same symptoms as my TDR did with the HV version. In fact, his heli flies very well and I would like an ESC performing like his does, not mine.

So what I'm trying to say is - maybe this is not an apples to apples comparison :)

The governor of my YGE HV ESC - no matter what parameters I set - was never even close to smooth. Lots of rev overshoot after load release - sounds like a quick downshift on a motorbike, the tail never absolutely still - even without wind, it tends to jig just a little every few seconds in a hover, and in flight you can hear the tail working harder, and also not use as much gyro/stabilizer gain as you could if the rpm were smoother.

I logged a lot regarding this and tried to optimize the settings - got them to a point where they felt okay, but I also had the problem that the YGE tends to want to "soft"-start not quite so softly; the initial acceleration is quite a lot, making the blades fold in if you don't tighten them more than usually (even with the lowest acceleration setting..).

This also is not a problem on the LV ESC...

Regards,
Simon.
 

gmauro

User
Thanks for all reply, I've fly this YGE 120 hv on my e-freya 10S whit scorpion 4035-560 whitout any problem, I've fly the yge on TDR 12S whit rewinderd pyro (delta winding) and no problem, whit YY winded scorpion have a bad run...... my idea is that this esc don't work good whit YY motor.... I change and test a jive controller.

Regards
Mauro
 
your idea is definatly wrong.
the YY windings are tested with yge and jive esc.
up to > 200Amps.

if your 4225 runs bad, may be there is a mistake done in building the motor or in your connections/connectors between esc and motor.
who was the winder of this 4225, how you got it?
how many magnets are into your can? :cool:
 

gmauro

User
HI Mr. powercroco i'm happy for your reply. :p

the motor is kit 4225 12N10P 6+7x1.32YY whit zig zag mode. during the building this motor I've search the good and simmetrical winding, I've verified that no have electric contact between chopper wire and stator, an between a single winding. Finally with an electric drill I have tested the output voltage of 3 motor cable (motor same a generator if drived by a drill) 1-2 2-3 3-1 and all the output voltage is equal (max 0.01V of difference). For the connections I use a 6mm connectors whit very hard interference.
From your idea and experience where is the possible problem? please help me to found any reply.

Thanks
Mauro

P.S. My passion to rewinding the motor is born after I've found your website, the bible for this. Thanks for your work.
 
have you tested the part-motors single for running with the same data in the same direction?
sure, that the starpoints have good contacts?
sure, that the connection of both motors together are good?
have you worked with this description:
http://www.powercroco.de/12N10P4225Kit.html

for me your description sounds as a switching problem.
but ibecause of I don't have the motor not into my hands for examinate it,
this is all only
icon_kugel.gif

some photos, especially from the switching side of your motor will be helpful to find out, what can be wrong!
 
out of each slot has to come 1 wire, if the winding is made just like in the instruction.

100_5191.jpg


when I see your photo:

186068d1299352778-modifica-riavvolgimento-dei-motori-brushless-dsc-2-.jpg


it looks for me wrong winded.
2 wires between 8 and 9 and no wire between 10 and 11 p.e.
 
Hi Mauro,

if you look closely, even on the first picture with all the wires on it, one wire comes out of each slot. It's only that they are already configured into star/wye terminals and motor terminals, but if you look at the slots themselves - one wire out of each.

This is important, if that isn't the case on your motor, it means you did not wind all groups identically as you should if you plan to wind a parallel (YY means 2 Y motors in parallel) motor.

You can test the two single Y motors easily like this - wire up the Y terminal and use the other 3 wires as motor terminals. The motor runs with only half the stator wound and in active use, with near identical kv.

Regards,
Simon.
 
Hi Mauro,

if you look closely, even on the first picture with all the wires on it, one wire comes out of each slot. It's only that they are already configured into star/wye terminals and motor terminals, but if you look at the slots themselves - one wire out of each.

This is important, if that isn't the case on your motor, it means you did not wind all groups identically as you should if you plan to wind a parallel (YY means 2 Y motors in parallel) motor.

You can test the two single Y motors easily like this - wire up the Y terminal and use the other 3 wires as motor terminals. The motor runs with only half the stator wound and in active use, with near identical kv. For example: slot 1-6 is motor 1 and 7-12 is motor 2. You can wind 3 identical groups with alternating direction of winding (clockwise/counterclockwise), so the schema for each would be AaBbCc.

Regards,
Simon.
 

gmauro

User
Thanks Mr. powercroco an nexus for your help, I understand were is my error and I go to rewind the motor, but now I've new questions: Before the 4225 i have winded 2 4035 whit this schema http://www.powercroco.de/schemamodus12N_YY.html and all 2 motors work good, whit kontronik jive and CC Ice 120A hv. Whit this schema DON'T have 1 wire for each slot. Now this schema is correct? is Correct only for different motors, but non the optimus for 4225? What I do not understand?

Thanks for your patience and sorry for bad english... :cry:

Mauro
 
to be honest I never tried the "special mode" for winding my engines. But if I take a look at it, in my opinion Mauro is right when he says, that there's not always one wire coming out of each slot. Because of winding it this special way, for my understanding the small groups always change winding directions between two neighboured ones, which results in a pattern of 0 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 2 - 1 - 0 - 1 - 2 - 1 for the number of wires coming out the 12 slots. This is what I see on Mauros picture. So for me not the winding itselve probably is the mistake here.

Am I wrong with this ?

@Mauro: If you don't find the mistake, just use the winding mode, were you do the 6 groups exactly the same way. Than estlblish the starpoint connections and test the 2 part engines seperately and after that do the test with the both together. For me this is less confusing

good luck

Ingo
 
Hi,

I have to disagree :)

Winding a motor in YY configuration with identical groups means identical groups - so if group 1 is one way, all the other groups need to be the same way - logical, no?

Look at the image I just created to illustrate this - if it isn't as the image shows, it isn't YY with identical groups...what you may be talking about is a D configuration of the same motor - where you do not have one wire from each slot, usually, but variation like arnie91 described.

12N-YY-identical-groups-one-wire-from-each-slot.png


The wire goes into one slot (it helps if you start on the "outside" - meaning if you wind tooth 1 + 2, have the "start" left of tooth 1 as in my drawing), and travels around the first tooth of the group counter-clockwise. Then you jump to tooth 2 and the wire goes around the tooth clockwise (Aa).

Now, even if you do the "zig-zag" winding mode and distribute further windings onto these two teeth after the first layer of wire is done, ONE wire will come out of each slot no matter what you do! Try it and see...

Regards,
Simon.
 

gmauro

User
Ok ok, from start to zero:

Thanks all for help and replys, i've understud that my winding on 4225 are not a normal YY, but "special" the same of this link: http://www.powercroco.de/schemamodus12N_YY.html Correct?

The preferred winding for all motor is normal YY the same of this link http://www.powercroco.de/schemamodus12N_YY2.html where i've for each slot one wire correct?

Now on my 4225 i've execute exactly the special YY winding, exactly the same showed on first link and don't work good, you think this is not correct winding? the schema is not correct?

I go to rewind my motor whitout any problem on standard YY, but I like understud and know the differences on two winding.

Thanks for patience :)

Mauro
 
both variatians work in the same way at the end.
which of these winding schemes you use, doesn't matter.

the "identical groups" are only easier to wind and switch and check from far away about correct winding.

if you are sure, winding and switching both part-motors is well done and you have no shorts between winding and stator and also between the single wires and f the rewinding is without effect, pls. check the magnets in the can for equal distances between them, loose magnets and correct polarity.
 

gmauro

User
both variatians work in the same way at the end.
which of these winding schemes you use, doesn't matter.

the "identical groups" are only easier to wind and switch and check from far away about correct winding.

if you are sure, winding and switching both part-motors is well done and you have no shorts between winding and stator and also between the single wires and f the rewinding is without effect, pls. check the magnets in the can for equal distances between them, loose magnets and correct polarity.

Ok thanks, now i've understud. The error in my winding is possible (don't is my intention is ssure of my "perfect" work whitout error), , is possible the short on turn of winding, or other mistake. now I rewind whit identical groups and I test the singol partial motor for new test flyght.

Regards
Mauro

P.S. test the output tension on the 3 cable (couple 1-2 2-3 3-1) is good or not for anhoter test on motor?
 

gmauro

User
Hi Mauro,

if you look closely, even on the first picture with all the wires on it, one wire comes out of each slot. It's only that they are already configured into star/wye terminals and motor terminals, but if you look at the slots themselves - one wire out of each.

This is important, if that isn't the case on your motor, it means you did not wind all groups identically as you should if you plan to wind a parallel (YY means 2 Y motors in parallel) motor.

You can test the two single Y motors easily like this - wire up the Y terminal and use the other 3 wires as motor terminals. The motor runs with only half the stator wound and in active use, with near identical kv. For example: slot 1-6 is motor 1 and 7-12 is motor 2. You can wind 3 identical groups with alternating direction of winding (clockwise/counterclockwise), so the schema for each would be AaBbCc.

Regards,
Simon.


Sorry for disturb, but I've little difficult to understud the method to test the single motor, For first motor I soldering only the 1° Y point and all 3 couple of connection cable? after ? anyone have a schema for this test?

Regards
Mauro
 
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